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RE: Jomsborg Gear Guide |
Ivar
Member of:
· Brotherhood of Jomsborg
Posts: 26
Location: Austria
Joined: 08.12.08
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| Posted on 15-12-2008 22:21 |
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well, concerning this mysterious "yellow-x", I also can only speculate, but:
1.: dyeing with (just any leaves) is no good idea, because the colouring agent (chlorophyll a) which wouzld give a light green or yellow in the beginning would soon fade to brown, under the influence of light.
2.: there are several plnts however, that can dye yellow.: Onion, Birch (also green, which leads me to the question of the existence of green fabrics) and Goldenrod (which is only good for dying wool).
All three plants are/were abundant in almost any region we aim to display.
3.: As a matter of fact, (I can only speak of the finds from York and sorounding areas, in anglo-skandinavian contexts) we also should aim to research if there is any knowledge, to wich colour yellow decays, as mainly Linnen fabrics are often carbonized or decayed to a stadium, in which it is nearly impossible to determine what dye was used.
OK, this was a long post for a new guy; hope to bring the discussion up again a little bit... |
 
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RE: Jomsborg Gear Guide |
Vladislawa
Posts: 22
Joined: 09.09.08
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| Posted on 16-12-2008 21:13 |
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Stop!
Dyeing with leaves does not work with chlorophyll but with other sustances as for example quercetin in birch leaves. It can result in a sunny yellow... it depends on the amount of plants you use (and also the mordant). With ironsulfate you can get a deep green. It will not become brown and its not so quickly bleaching.
Birch is questionable for Scandinavia (yes, its definitely existing, but its not proven as dyeing reagent!), also onion (the colouring chemical can be proven, BUT the underlieng plant can not be detected).
Almost no coloured linen was found (and linen was expensive).
Just keep it in your mind. If you need hand-coloured textiles ask me... |
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RE: Jomsborg Gear Guide |
Vladislawa
Posts: 22
Joined: 09.09.08
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| Posted on 16-12-2008 21:16 |
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I forgot: The Colourful Past by Judith H. Hofenk de Graaff (Origins, Chemistry an Identification of Natural Dyestuffs), 2004 |
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| Author |
RE: Jomsborg Gear Guide |
Ivar
Member of:
· Brotherhood of Jomsborg
Posts: 26
Location: Austria
Joined: 08.12.08
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| Posted on 16-12-2008 21:54 |
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Sorry, I did not articulate me correctly: Leaves was concerning Grass (which definately decays , not Tree-leaves.
Thanks for the tip on the book. |
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RE: Jomsborg Gear Guide |
Vladislawa
Posts: 22
Joined: 09.09.08
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| Posted on 17-12-2008 10:20 |
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Why should someone dye with grass? |
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| Author |
RE: Jomsborg Gear Guide |
Ivar
Member of:
· Brotherhood of Jomsborg
Posts: 26
Location: Austria
Joined: 08.12.08
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| Posted on 18-12-2008 07:54 |
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well, I know peole who tried... (not me!)  |
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RE: Jomsborg Gear Guide |
Vladislawa
Posts: 22
Joined: 09.09.08
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| Posted on 18-12-2008 11:14 |
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Sorry for getting so OT 
So thats the point: Today everebody is trying to dye everything with everything... you can dye with coffee, pine cones etc... but you always should not forget that this is not the aim!
Hope it doesnt sound strange, but we should always check what colouring agents exist (chemical way), what plants are possible for it (palaeobotany) and which dyestuffs are proved to be used (finds, secondary sources...). |
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| Author |
RE: Jomsborg Gear Guide |
Ivar
Member of:
· Brotherhood of Jomsborg
Posts: 26
Location: Austria
Joined: 08.12.08
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| Posted on 24-01-2009 11:54 |
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Hello;
According to "Woven into the Earth, Textiles from Norse Greenland" by Else Ostergaard (Aarhus University Press)
Red-dyed Textiles; Wool and possible Linnen (due to carbonisation hard to say) were dyed with Iron-rich water and iron-rich clay.
This was also used in the Arab countries to die Linnen; so a certain possibility is there, that Linnen was dyed.
Well, the book also states that this kind of dye was ONLY found in Greenland Settlements. |
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RE: Jomsborg Gear Guide |
Vladislawa
Posts: 22
Joined: 09.09.08
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| Posted on 24-01-2009 14:40 |
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Herjolfsnes finds are dedicated to late middle ages (even though Herjolfsnes is founded about 985) and not to the Dark ages.
http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~Marc-Carlson/cloth/herjback.html
Ivar, could you tell me the pages, which you quoted?
“[...]Cotton and linen (cellulose) are much more difficult to dye; they need a complicated pre-treatment of the fibre. This process was unknown in Europe, where mainly wool and silk were dyed. […]”
The Colours of the Past, J.H. Hofenk de Graaff, p. 353, Appendix: Essays, Abegg-Stiftung, Archetype Publications, 2004
It is sure that you can dye linen, but this knowledge was “importet” later than our timeframe here. |
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| Author |
RE: Jomsborg Gear Guide |
Ivar
Member of:
· Brotherhood of Jomsborg
Posts: 26
Location: Austria
Joined: 08.12.08
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| Posted on 24-01-2009 22:06 |
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I was referring the Post to the pages 76 to 91 in the book noted above.
Yes, most Garnments are 1250 a.d. onwards, but there are definate finds, (mainly wool) which were dated earlier:
[...]"The oldest textile from the churchjard , ... The dating is 1180 - 1310AD (Yes, out of range) [..] the textile fragment from the Long house at GUS is, untill now (1998), zthe oldest textile fragment from norse settlements in Greenland. Dating is AD 990 - 1190."
partly in the range According to the corresponding Radio-carbon measuring-table and Graph, the probability range is 965 + 45 years, with a peak at 990 AD (95,4%) |
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RE: Jomsborg Gear Guide |
Hengest
Member of:
· Brotherhood of Jomsborg
· BlóðVitniR
Posts: 55
Location: Kaiserslautern, Germany
Joined: 29.07.08
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| Posted on 27-01-2009 09:17 |
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ehm...
just a question: Wasn't the gear guide about "basic equipment" and a guideline to "must have" or "should have"...
this is deviating to a bitching about details, which is nice, but doesn't really further the idea of a helpful catalogue of the things needed for decent "Jomsviking-Reenactment"...
anyway: Is there something definite done already and where can I find it?
Regards, H.
Lead, Follow - or get the hell out of my way. |
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RE: Jomsborg Gear Guide |
Vladislawa
Posts: 22
Joined: 09.09.08
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| Posted on 07-02-2009 13:27 |
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So, maybe you can divide in two threads (...)
I`ll try to get the book. |
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RE: Jomsborg Gear Guide |
Vladislawa
Posts: 22
Joined: 09.09.08
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| Posted on 14-02-2009 19:26 |
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Another time OT:
There is written about linen, most carbonised and black (today), but I did not find text passages about red coloured linen.
Concerning the fragments:
Fragment GUS x 3048 (AAR-3682) from The Farm beneath the Sand (GUS) is dated 965+/- 45 BP which means about 985 +/-45 AD (and dated 990-1190AD). Radiocarbonanalysis in detail is 1010AD to 1070AD with 28,7%, 1080AD to 1160AD with 39,5% and 990AD to 1190AD with 95,4%. It is a fragment in tabby weave, light brown, unevenly woven and the thickness of thread varies a lot (and in my opinion wool).
I would not draw conclusions from that finds, better take Birka or Haithabu (or Jorvik). Else Ostergard writes (p.123) “Textile fragments […] had elements known from the ´viking costume´. […] But although the Greenlandic landnama textiles have a Viking Age element, they are difficult to place as belonging to the costume of that age, since they are stray finds without established relationships. […]”. |
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| Author |
RE: Jomsborg Gear Guide |
Ivar
Member of:
· Brotherhood of Jomsborg
Posts: 26
Location: Austria
Joined: 08.12.08
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| Posted on 13-03-2009 11:49 |
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OK; let us all focus on what the tread was originally about.
Do we have any structured jomsborg Gear "Guidelines" yet, or did we just brag about stuff, we should discuss in other specialized threads?
If I recall it right, we just agreed on the timeperiode (roughly 1000AD +/- 50 or what years) and the possible regions ( from Iceland to byzantium).
c'mon; that can't be it.
regards Ivar (who is also guilty of letting the thread go off topic) |
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| Author |
RE: Jomsborg Gear Guide |
Garrelt
Member of:
· Brotherhood of Jomsborg
Posts: 8
Location: Eindhoven, Netherlands
Joined: 28.03.09
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| Posted on 12-05-2009 11:11 |
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Hand books and gear guides have been around since the early nineties, but they can be hard to find.
There are some good references for authentic clothing on the internet but you have to find the right sites.
Example the online Stuttgarter Psalter
http://www.wlb-stuttgart.de/index.php?id=3547&set[mets]=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wlb-stuttgart.de%2Fdigitalisate%2Fcod.bibl.fol.23%2Fmets.xml&set[image]=1&set[zoom]=min&set[style]=
The problem is always the dating of textile finds.
As an example: the well know Thorsberg trousers and tunic are dated 3rd century ad.
This is know as late iron age, in Denmark and (late) Roman period in Germany.
So not early medieval as stated in a lot of publications
If you have a inhumation grave context with textile remains on certain parts of the skeleton you can assume that it could have been part of the clothing the person was wearing.
If you take a look at old fresco's and Psalters they are always full of color, but when you find a piece of cloth during an excavation it is always dark brown or almost black, the same with leather finds.
Even after conservation and restoration, which can take up to 2 years, traces of colour are hard to find.
But there are ancient sources which mention dyed clothing and leather.
Was there a big difference between AngloSaxon clothing being worn in England and the clothing worn by the Angels and Saxons in North Germany/Denmark?
Maybe a question which can never be answered in the correct way.
It is good to have a date set for the portraying period.
From that on you can work on your basic kit.
But remember time, place and status.
Don't walk around in rags wearing a lot of silver.
The basics for a man:
Tunic
Trousers
Socks
Shoes
Belt
Knife
Pouch
The basics for a woman (non-com):
Long tunic (dress)
Pinu (if needed in your display)
Shoes
Socks
Belt
Knife
Pouch
Basic cloth:
Wool
Linen
Even wool/linen mix is possible.
Expensive cloth (in the west):
Silk
Cotton
Please avoid reanacting other reanactors
Regards
Garrelt
Hrafntrae
Dutch Elag Brabant
Edited by Garrelt on 14-05-2009 17:52 |
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happy Birthday, brother Hengest!!